8.25.2006

femininity? (BECAUSE us girls...)

wow. this is pretty much verbatim what i was thinking about today on the bus to work:

...I do think it’s a bad thing when women are the “beauty class” — that is, the group in society who are valued primarily for their physical appearance, and grow up with the idea that the quest for beauty should be a primary goal in their lives. I have a problem with the system that punishes women who opt out of this quest, or who, despite their efforts, aren’t perceived as conventionally attractive because of their age, race, body type, or some other reason.
While boys’ clothes are certainly also marketed, they seem to be more targeted at wealthy parents (or, to be more specific, wealthy mothers) who want to dress their sons up like preppy little Ken dolls. Girls’ clothes, on the other hand, seem to be marketed to mothers and daughters alike, reinstating the girl-as-consumer mold, and further tying girls’ identities to how they present themselves physically, and what they have verses what they do.
Juliet B. Schor, the author of “Born to Buy: The Commercialized Child and the New Consumer Culture” (Scribner), ascribes children’s heightened acquisitiveness partly to increasingly aggressive marketing. “The very insidious thing about this,” she said, “is that kids get the message that they need this product — whether it’s a sugared cereal or the latest fashion trend — to be O.K., to be cool. That is potentially interfering with their intrinsic sense of self. Kids from the very beginning are learning that your self-worth depends on what you have and how the market evaluates you.”
I think this is key, and I would further argue that this consumerism is aimed far more at girls than at boys (although boys certainly get their fair share too). I’d like to see kids outside running around, playing sports, creating artwork, dancing, or doing about 100 other things before shopping for kiddie couture. I’d like to see kids develop their identities based on their interests and passions, not on what brand of jeans they’re wearing. I’d just like to see four-year-olds be allowed to be four.
the whole article on feministe is here. i absolutely hate how more and more little girls are getting these messages about their bodies being in need of sexualization and commodification: the best part of being a pre-pubescent girl is (or used to be) that you didn't yet have to worry about this, and you were "free" - a kid as opposed to a girl, entirely defined by your sex/gender. and, yes, though boys are being pressured into looking a certain way and buying certain products more and more as well, for them the sexual aspect doesn't come in, and the pressure is nowhere near as serious! [another good post at feministe makes some further important points on this topic]

speaking of bodies and having freedom outside of the rigid sex and gender roles assigned by the mainstream, i was reading through the awesome "Results of a Misspent Youth: Joan Jett’s performance of female masculinity" again, and i ran into this bit of little known history:


Throughout her career, punk has influenced Jett’s performance of masculinity, and this influence is critical to how Jett constructs an image of female masculinity that operates in between conventional definitions of masculinity and femininity. For a brief period, punk created opportunities for women that had previously not existed in rock music. As punk resisted traditional musical forms, it opened the door to musicians who did not have access to classical training and experience. North American punk began with the Detroit underground bands of the late 1960s, art house rock and crossdressing bands like the New York Dolls and Jayne/Wayne Country. Dissatisfied with stadium rock, the early punk bands developed a ‘Do It for Yourself’ ethics that encouraged women like Debbie Harry, Mo Tucker, and Patti Smith to join bands. Punks rejected traditional musical traditions, including those that dictated that women could not play instruments and were wedded to sentimental, gentle and confidential lyrics.[8] In Chrissie Hynde’s words:
The best thing about [punk] for me was that I didn’t have to rely on being a female guitarist as a gimmick. Punk was very liberating like that. For the first time I could do what I wanted to do and being a girl wasn’t an issue. It would have been uncool for that to be a problem. Punk allowed anyone in – you could be a dwarf, short whatever – but that was only true for about six months.[9]
Whereas rock depended on more traditional gender images, the punk ascetic [sic*] encouraged men and women to play with gender conventions and gave women the freedom to be ‘ugly’ as well as to parody sexual conventions. Jett was a fan of punk and quickly integrated its sensibility into her music and performances. Specifically, punk provided Jett with the symbols from which she could explore gender and sexual inversion. These symbols were available to Jett because at least in its beginning, punk enabled women to reimagine their roles in rock music; they could portray themselves as sexualized, desexualized or anti-sexual subjects. This variety led to a number of different punk images for women that ranged from Debbie Harry’s ironic parodying of the pin-up, to Siouxsie Sioux’s theatrical gothic to Jett’s performance of masculinity.[10]

As some punk bands attained mainstream success, however, they played down punk’s critique of class and gender. Even punk bands like Blondie that attempted to maintain punk’s parody of middle-class gender roles discovered that it was difficult to translate punk ideals to a broader audience. Mainstream marketing techniques often converted irony and parody into conventional statements that offered women as sexual objects for male consumption.[11] As significantly, internal changes within punk began to re-emphasize masculinity and its central place within rock music. By the late 1970s and early 1980s, all-male bands such as the Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, and Fear were experimenting with ‘hard core’ punk which stressed accelerated rhythms and angry lyrics. At the same time, thrashing, a form of punk ‘dance’ that involved flailing one’s arms and lifting one’s knees, took over the mosh pits of many punk shows. The mosh pit, that area directly in front of the performer where fans would ‘mosh’ or dance, would later become an important arena for negotiating sexual politics as women’s punk bands reclaimed it for women and girls. Both physically and musically, hard core rejected the gender ambiguity of the early punk era, replacing it with a unisex masculine musical style and emphasis. In the words of critic Lorraine Leblanc, hard core ‘edged women out of the scene.’[12] While some women, like Lydia Lunch and Wendy O. Williams, briefly thrived in punk during the early 1980s, other women’s bands like the Go Go’s turned to more conventional musical styles like pop and new wave. In part, Jett’s significance lies in her ability to use and invert rock and punk’s masculinity to create a space for herself at the precise moment in which that space closed for most women.
so, while i have many good things to say about hardcore and some of what i appreciate most in this world is steeped in the hc scene and viceversa, it's certainly the case that it marked the beginning of this hyper-masculinization of punk. it's unbelievable how sexist punk scenes remain to this day - how little we've progressed (we've regressed, really) since the early '70s in terms of the variety and diversity of sexual expression allowed. hearing punks talk about how stupid "cunts" are the reason why someone who wants to be different is discriminated against by the powers that be (as i have recently), you just want to go: but you're just finding someone to step on yourself! you're supposed to be against anything that reeks of mainstream and patriarchal order, why not talk about how the majority of women and men subscribe to it, how it really is a patriarchal order? why would you stress that it's "cunts" and "whores" (and what woman isn't that to a certain extent, right?) who are the major dupes? think about it: if you do that, what's in it for you, what are you aiming for? because all you will get is a pat on the back from the patriarchy, and all you're doing is to fulfill your role as oppressor or simple follower of the rules. besides, it would be good not to forget where the term "punk" came from and what it really meant, originally:

punk = a young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison
[much like "cunt", a sexually pejorative term which is used to infer/confer a "feminine" and therefore inferior/negative status for somebody]!

it was based on this negative conotation that "punk" then became a young inexperienced person: beginner, novice; especially : a young man, or a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian (websters), or basically rotten, worthless, or snotty; also meaning a street hustler or juvenile delinquent, and got applied to "punks" (also see some hardcore basics and one of my favorite punk rock descriptions, "fear of a punk planet," with some excellent quotes by the excellent dan sinker). anyway, a punk should be the last person to talk pejoratively about "cunts," to reinforce masculine standards or try to impose patriarchal rules on people. learn your history, guys (and girls)!

here, i want to quote some more from the joan jett article, as i think it's all super important and relevant to some recent discussions i've had:
‘Go Home’ (1992-98)
Women can watch other women, and it doesn’t even have to be in any sexual way. You can get off on watching women on stage taking the music and using it to their advantage – instead of being used by the music, which has always been the case. Now women can get out those feelings that they have had for so long. And I think that’s a real good shift in mental attitude. (Joan Jett, 1993)[53]
Emerging from Olympia and Seattle, Washington and Washington, DC in the early 1990s, ‘the riot grrrls’ blended a punk rock ascetic [sic*] with a political commitment to feminism.[54] Forming a number of all-women or mixedgender rock groups and producing fanzines – inexpensively produced newsletters that offered political commentary – the riot grrrls gave musical expression to previously ignored topics like violence against women. The riot grrrls sought first and foremost to directly challenge the misogyny in the traditional rock formula, consciously seeking to make women subjects rather than objects in punk and rock music. Some groups, such as L7, formed specifically political organizations like Rock for Choice and gained marketability through summer tours like Lallapalooza.[55] The ideal of the riot grrrls was to voice the experiences of girls and to develop a less competitive and more supportive atmosphere for musical experimentation. The explosion of women rock bands provided a space for girls to experiment musically and receive some support from major record labels.[56]

For many riot grrrls, Jett was an important role model who developed into a strong advocate. While Jett acknowledged some differences between herself and the riot grrrls, she defended them against their critics, a defense which reflected both old and new themes in her outlook. On the one hand, Jett expressed appreciation for the way the riot grrrls expressed themselves. On the other hand, she also credited the riot grrrls for giving voice to girls’ varied experiences. The riot grrrls ‘are trying to voice their own feelings,’ Jett explained to a reporter, ‘and people shouldn’t immediately throw up a wall and say “oh my God, they want to cut my dick off, so I can’t listen!” A lot of people have had experiences in life that maybe you and I haven’t had and it can’t hurt to listen. You don’t have to agree but you could say, “I hear what she’s saying and I understand how she could feel that way.” I think Riot Grrrl is really healthy. Too many women are afraid to express their opinions in a strong way.’[57]

While Jett influenced the riot grrrls to sing and play rock music, they, in turn, helped jolt Jett out of a politics of indifference. After attending a Bikini Kill concert, Jett wrote ‘Activity Grrrl’ to reflect on how the riot grrrls changed her approach to music and politics. ‘She works real hard to try to make things right / To see if she can find a reason for what’s wrong / In life – she puts her thought into magazine form / An’ passes them all around her dorm / Showin’ me another way, another way to fight.’[58] In particular, Jett developed a desire, in her words, to ‘mend my ways to feminism,’ and to use her music to ‘empower women.’[59] Consequently, she became more involved with women’s issues, publicly advocating for the prochoice movement and joining the National Organization for Women, performing at their march on Washington where she apparently led its participants in a chorus of ‘fuck you’ to the anti-abortion members of Congress.[60] It was the death of Mia Zapata, the lead singer of the Seattlebased group the Gits, however, that integrated Jett into the Seattle music scene and led her to make her strongest feminist statements.

In July 1993, Zapata was raped and murdered after leaving the Comet, a bar at which she frequently performed. Her death had a strong effect on the female-led bands of the Seattle area, leading Valerie Agnew of the group Seven-Year Bitch and other members of the Seattle music and art community to found the collective, Home Alive. Its purpose was to provide affordable self-defense training for women. In its first year, about seventy-five per cent of its clients had incomes below $10,000 and/or were living on the streets. Home Alive offered them courses ranging from anger management to the use of weapons. According to the collective members, Zapata’s death awakened them to the fact that ‘we just weren’t taking care of each other,’ or in Agnew’s words, ‘If Mia had known how to really throw a punch, would she be alive? Could she have survived?’[61]

Zapata’s murder forced Jett to consider her own vulnerability to the omnipresent threat of violence against women. ‘I didn’t know Mia at all,’ Jett explained, ‘but I felt a strong connection. Too many women are ending up dead, and too many people aren’t caring about it.’[62] While discussing Zapata’s death, Jett and Kathleen Hanna of Bikini Kill decided to write ‘Go Home,’ a song about men stalking women and the psychological effects that violence has on women. Like much of the riot grrrls’ music, the song uses anger and screaming as a catharsis both to make women aware of the violence done to their bodies and souls and to purge patriarchal thinking from their psyche. The song begins with the lines, ‘Walking down the street at night / I am so aware of you / Give me a reason to fight / when there’s no one to protect you.’ The ‘you’ in the song represents both the possible male stalker and the voice inside the woman’s head, both sending her the same message – to ‘go home.’ Like Home Alive, the song encourages every woman to resist the voice inside her head that tells her to go home by learning how to protect herself from violence and its accompanying patriarchal ideology which instructs women to hide from the violence by either staying home or covering-up their sexuality. Surviving male violence against women, the song suggests, requires women to get angry so that they can destroy this ideology as well as their attackers – ‘Now take that voice outside a’ my head / I hear that voice insid’ a my head / Get that voice outta my head / I will choke it dead, dead / I will stab it dead, dead / I will kill it dead, dead.’[63] Taking its cue from feminist self-defense programs, ‘Go Home’ encouraged women to turn the violence and anger outward against the attacker rather than inward against themselves.[64]

Jett dedicated the video for ‘Go Home’ to Mia Zapata. ... In making the video, Jett claimed that she wanted to highlight the indecision that women being stalked felt because she wanted to emphasize that women’s fear of being embarrassed or of being impolite prevents them from taking the necessary actions to protect themselves.[66] The song and video ‘Go Home,’ advocated taking control of and possession of violence rather than rejecting violence out of hand. But even more significantly, ‘Go Home,’ like Home Alive, encouraged women to reject their status as victims and their expectations that men could protect them from sexual violence. In the words of Agnew, ‘But in reality, women need to learn self-defense tactics ... The concept of selfdefense comes down to believing that your life is worth defending. It’s amazing how many people won’t take that stance: “Fuck you – I will kill you before you kill me, because my life is worth more than yours.”’[67]
-> the "go home" video and on mia zapata. also, about the riot grrrl legacy.

and finally, i wanted to give this link to photos of shows by sarah kramer (of "how it all vegan" fame). those couple of shows look so so great, and fun! this is what punk rock should be about, in my opinion: it should be open to, and equally fun for, everyone. NOT just for guys or those who worship at the altar of masculinity, and not in traditional macho ways! [maybe i'll write down some of my own experiences with FUN, not macho, shows, someday.]

and here's where i insert the linkage for relevant further reading:
  • RIOT GRRRL MANIFESTO
  • "Not Just Boy's Fun": Women in the Contemporary North American Punk Music Scene"
  • "A little too ironic": the appropriation and packaging of Riot Grrrl politics by mainstream female musicians
  • worse than queer: riot grrrl journal entries, riot grrrl column, punk rock and race/opting out of punk rock colum ('Thumbing through my cache of punk rock propaganda reminds me why I became an expatriate in the first place, why I continue to hold it at arm's length. Nor is this simply a comment on race, as if I could even imagine race as a discrete category apart from others, like cans in a cupboard (my usual analogy). There is an unmistakable continuum I could trace, like a spiderweb or a breadcrumb trail, winding (or blanketing, maybe) across the landscape of punk rock cultural and political production. "Disco is for blacks and homosexuals," a 1979 fanzine sneers; maybe it's no accident that it was called Final Solution. "The United Negro College Fund is a sublime absurdity," lambastes a Hitlist magazine columnist in this new year, and I remember that the same writer once argued feminists were too. There are the presumptuous disavowals of both racism ("punk is anti-racist") and race ("there is no race but the human race"), familiar reformulations repeated when gender or class or sexuality or borders are invoked. And once swastikas were worn as accessories, could the iconic manipulation of Third World suffering for record sleeves and gatefolds be far behind? (In this sense, punk rock follows in the tradition of the white European avant-garde and its foundational myth of originality and refusal of accountability, but that's a whole other story.) Indie rock girls ask why gays and lesbians want "special rights," punk boys rape or beat girlfriends and acquaintances, and in between there are the innumerable insults, the slips of tongues, and the violent gestures.') and it's (not) a white world, hey. by one of my favorite writers, mimi nguyen


* should be "aesthetic" (?)

10 comentarii:

RudeGirl spunea...

I read that @ Feministe and got even more "scared" than I was about the matter. A few months ago, I was thinking about how romanian tv commercials perpetuate the same stereotypes of femininity for little girls as well as for women. For instance we have the little girl in the Hochland cheese commercial that is trying to get her playground mate to let her take a walk with his bike, by giving him a sandwich [a Hochland Cheese sandwich!]. I can't help noticing the ressemblance to a Knorr or Maggi commercial featuring a mother who convinced her husband to allow their daughter to go to a concert by giving him a Maggi spiced soup. And there are more and more examples. I think it's desgusting how the advertising business turns to her account those old stereotypes about young girls and women and perpetuates them to kids, picturing them as sneaky, devious persons that deceive men with food and other crap.
Going back to the fashion part, that article proves one of my strongest points: that there are waaaaay too many parents that have children just to feel comfortable, proud and to be able to walk around and say "here's my kid, the most beautiful, well dressed and fashionable ever". I think a responsable parent would stop and think for a while about what that kind of attitude will bring to his/her kid. It's not only about de continuously sexualization aspect, it's also about teaching your children the value of money and life aso. Anyway, I might not have been in that privileged class back in the days when I was four, seven or ten, and we were also under the communist regime and then fresh out of it, but no little girl ever thought about that kind of stuff. Of course, there were girls who were able to get clothing from abroad, but there was nothing fancy, fashionable or sexy. It was just about the quality of the fabric and comfort. And yea, we used to play around with mommy's lipstick and high-heeled shoes, but we were very aware that it was not for us.
The things are evolving [regressing] pretty fast. I am stuned when I see clothes for little girls that cost just as much as the one that I would buy [iiif I had the money] or 10 year olds going to the disco.:|

Regarding that other subject, I just read the article myself. Beautiful.
I think the part about the hardcore contributing to the sexism of the scene is true.
Apart from that, I noticed something: there have been girls that the punk scenes calls "cunts" and "whores" for so long that no one really sees what started it. Cause usually this kind of girls are the ones that don't really know the music but fall for the stereotipically "bad guy" that a punk is. Of course, they are described as crazy nymphos that tempt those innocent punks into fucking, alluring them with their sexual favours. I can't see though how those girls that ocasionally have sex with punks can spoil the image of the scene and make other people discriminate against "someone who wants to be different"?? Do they think that girls that are into punk music and really want to be a part of the scene are discriminated?? And why do the punks are act like such victims when it comes to that? Do other girls than "the-scene-girls-we-know-and-approve" [a humongous number, btw:|] rape the punks? Or what?
Anyway, I think that people discriminate against punks because of the punk guys doing nothing all day long, drinking their eye-balls out every damn night and acting stupid in the mosh pit. That kind of punks that only care about the appearance, the number of piercings and the height of the mohawk.
Well, I hope I didn't make too many mistakes, as my english sucks lately. I didn't want to be rude, tho`:D.

bujor tavaloiu spunea...

hehe, you're the only one allowed to be rude. :)

i think you're right. things are regressing, commercials are getting more and more aggressive and targeting younger and younger kids (and their parents), and it's sickening. i haven't seen the commercial you mentioned but it sounds so stupid. and someone was telling me about some video clip that's quite popular now on romanian tv, some singer's daughter or something, who's very cute and sings really well herself, but the video portrays her like a "little lady" and it's quite scary. do you know what i'm talking about? i've actually been wanting to find out the name of the little girl/video, to see it myself.

i guess the only solution that i see to this problem is to have as many adults as possible stop encouraging this kinds of advertisements and to stop buying these products for kids. parents have to be educated (actually, i really believe that people should be forced to take parenting lessons before becoming parents, but let's not get into it). how do we do all that? maybe through anti-consumerist campaigns like adbusters', media literacy projects (citizens for media literacy, media watch, girls, women + media), media literacy projects especially for kids (dont' buy it, media smart, media awareness network etc. ... and through plain speaking out about it, whenever you can, personally. i guess. but the advertising industry, and consumerism, are the toughest opponents to face, for sure!

(btw, i, too, often think about how my childhood was never plagued by thoughts of clothes, and "stuff", and brand names - not that as a girl didn't learn all about how i need to be pretty and attractive and a lady after a certain age, but basically our lives in romania were totally devoid of the effects of advertising before '90. i really think if anything was unequivocally good back then this was it, even though i'm aware that most probably not having access to it made it all the more tempting and interesting. though not having access to the bare neccesities certainly sucked - but we made do, of course. it doesn't surprise me that now, after such a relatively short time, consumerism and the obsession with materialism has become so RAMPANT among romanians when before it was totally absent. but it saddens and frightens me! i'd even say, without exaggerating, that some aspects of consumerism are more acute in romania than "in the west"; and the "best" example is the way women are expected to look and do look, how widespread eating disorders are, and so on.)

i think you're right about the punk thing, too, completely. to answer your question, the comment i'd seen that made me horribly mad was actually that it's discrimination that all these stupid easy girls (but instead of girls, "cunts" was used throughout) are "allowed" to come to school dressed like sluts, while when a guy comes with a mohawk he is "censored" and told to cut it off. because, you know - once again the stupid whores are to blame for everything! nevermind that the fact that girls dressing like that is "allowed" precisely because that's what female fashion has become, and fashion is promoted by the powers that be, while girls are simply conforming, to fit in. nevermind that most kids - girls and boys do try their hardest to fit in, because you have to be brave not to. nevermind that if it's hard for a boy to look "different", for girls it's several times more impossible! of course, it's not patriarchal order and those who establish it who are to blame. no, the problem - naturally - are the... "cunts". anyway, i'm copying that comment below for your reading pleasure as i'm sure you will be floored by the beauty and brilliance of the argument and thank me [sorry to non-romanians, it's in romanian - you're missing out!]:

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Am avut si io creasta! Am avut bine zis! Am fost intr-o zi la scoala si m-a vazut directoarea! A inceput sa faca ca totzi dracii! Pentru simplu fapt k eu aveam creasta idioata mi-a facut proces verbal si m-a pus sa ma tund! Eu consider acest lucru discriminare! Vreau sa iau niste masuri, dar prea stiu cum! Nu cunosc prea bine legile despre descriminate, rasism, etc. Cine ma ajuta si pe mine sa gasesc o solutzie?
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nu tzine de discriminarea la care te referi tu treaba asta...aia e de rasa, religie etc...shtii ce e discriminant insa? faptul ca profesorii accepta sa vina la scoala tot felu de pizde cu tzatzele pe afara shi cu fuste de li se vede curu(daca asta mai e decent) shi tu cu creasta eshti indecent shi ai o imagine urata, creezi o imagine urata scolii....asha zic ei...da pe aia care arata ca de pe centura,,,,pe aia o scoate la tabla shi o pune sa scrie data sus de tot ca sa i se vada bucile ca lumea..( am avut eu un prof de mate asha) cum e shi faza cu clipurile la tv...alea cu pizde care dau din cururi goale nu sunt cenzurate da-i cenzureaza pe aia de la parazitzii ca fumeaza sau ca beau in clipuri....daca erai pizda shi itzi aratai curu shi tzatzele poate te lasau shi cu creasta...
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nice, huh??? let's pit the punks against the cunts - it makes so much sense. ARRRGH

RudeGirl spunea...

:-0 oh my god!!?? what is that? what did that discussion group become? i thought it was a group for serious, mature conversations, not a space for exposing frustrations like that. I thought that it was all about those same "cunts" talked about over and over again, the so called "punks wannabes"... and yea, I agree with you, and it's very sad... especially because they don't understand exactly what they're doing. and they're being conformists. or, as a fave band of mine used to say: "they don't fight the system, they're fighting each other". and on the other hand, most of the punks i know always say that they prefere having a girlfriend that "looks feminine and sexy", rather than a punk-girl.
and i also get extremely mad when going to clubs and hearing punks say "oh, those stupid, dirty gypsies, thay're the one that brought romania to the state it's in" or "i fuckin' hate fags". like wtf?? they sould be, inside their race, some kind of poster boys for diversity, color, rebellion, oppresion fighting. after all, they get oppressed too, not being allowed to go to school dressed the way they do and having the police control them all the time just for looking different. and actually i was wondering if scenes from other countries are the same.
plus... you are not allowed to go to high school with a mohawk, that goes a long way back, i don't know why she's being do surprised. I don't know any punk that's in high-school and takes his mohawk with him. of course, the fact that it's going a long way back doesn't make it ok, but i still can't understand how some people consider that so important, when there are far more serious things to think about.
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the video you're talking about is Cleopatra Stratan's "Ghita" and actually I found it more like a mocking of the little lolitas than trying to look like a lolita herself. I still think it's a bit to early to put a kid in showbiz [she's only 3 years old after all]. In the registration they had effects added on her voice, but she played a live concert a few weeks ago. And yea, she is cute and sings nice:) and the video is here

bujor tavaloiu spunea...

hehe, she is so awesome actually! i am soooo thankful that at least she wasn't sexualized in any way. she's wearing a totally cute, not ostentatious little girl dress - not "sexy" in any way as it might've been and as i thought it would be - and to me it seems quite ok. and the song is cute, too, and her voice. the aspects i have a major problem with are: 1. like you said, it can't be totally healthy for her to be in show biz at this age - you know she's being exploited at least to a certain extent, no matter what (i assume it was her father's idea?... btw, he's seemed pretty cool to me so far, but i don't really know too much) and 2. there is an issue there with what the song is about: the long-suffering, waiting-for-her-man woman... in this case, portrayed by a 3-year old!! then the whole thing about "don't come as you usually do, empty handed"... it's at least a little bit disturbing: little girls already breaking their hearts over a guy, patiently waiting for him... and showing materialistic tendencies. :D i mean :( anyway, i find the age thing in itself kind of humorous - the scarf and sunglasses which are supposed to show age/sophistication... it totally seems like something a little girl might actually do, borrow some items like that to play dress up in a totally innocent kinda way...

i'm curious how you see the video as mocking little lolitas. just because she's quite so young and acting more grown up, or something else specific (it's totally possible i missed some allusion)?

and i loooove the "sa te iubieasca asa de tarrreee" part, on its own. and i freakin' love the guy's name, "ghita". that is brilliant.
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on the punk matter: yup. precisely! that was my point, too, about how punks should know as well as anyone discrimination and oppression when they see them, and not participate in them, and should NOT be the world's most conformist conformists. though of course sexism, racism etc. are such old old engrained problems in punk that it sounds naive to even say that. who says "they don't fight the system, they're fighting each other"? - that's quite perfectly put. you know, apropos of what we were talking earlier, too - activist scenes etc..

and yes, scenes in other countries are quite similar. though certain parts of certains scenes like to act more "enlightened" and "aware" - deep down, when it comes to it, "whiteboy machismo" dominates almost always, anyway - in day to day interactions, as well as at shows. well, at all shows EXCEPT for certain ones where the problems, if they exist/appear, are voiced clearly. like at fugazi shows. :D or at butchies shows, where the audiences are the best 'cause they're diverse, feminist, and awesome by definition. :D one of the many reason to love such bands, in fact.

anyway, yeah, that list is fucked up. there's a good post every once in a long-ass while, and then most of it is... i have no words. i check it once a month or so, and i'm always speechless. like the stuff coming from this girl (i believe she's quite young, and seems pretty out of it in general, to be honest); here's some more "pearls of wisdom from her (and i almost can't believe she's a girl): "women are everywhere and suffocating us with their presence" or "if they put on some clothes and started being human, then women wouldn't be discriminated against" or "yeah, i don't like girls"... it's unbelievable, and it would almost make me laugh if it didn't make me cry; of course, none of the many guys there say anything against those kinds of statements, probably because they agree so much with them - when you access the group the first thing you see is this line in capital letters: "WE WILL NOT ACCEPT NATIONALISTIC, RACIST, SEXIST MESSAGES OR ANY MESSAGE WHICH PROMOTES HATE...", but that doesn't seem to make any kind of practical difference. and then there was that message i copied above! i couldn't take it anymore. and i swear, besides my reaction there was literally only ONE guy out of 700 members who said he doesn't feel like that, he wants to respect, not discriminate against, women. the rest were totally in agreement about "cunts" or yelling to stop filling their mailbox with such unimportant crap. (anyway, i got this mad once before, when this same girl said something about how instead of actions for girls like ladyfest there should be actions for animals, who are really discriminated against, not like the women suffocating us with their presence... heh).

of course, as you say, the prevailing mentality is that the stupid "cunts" are responsible for all the evil in the world, but at the same time they're the girls one wants - who would be interested in a nonconformist non-feminine punk girl? i believe this will be a hard lesson for the girl with who believes that "femeile ne sufoaca"[sic :D ], in fact i'm surprised she hasn't learned it yet.

Anonim spunea...

Normal ca femeile o sufoca. Concurentaaa! =))

RudeGirl spunea...

well, yea, it was her father's idea, as, from what he said, he considers her really talented and he's really proud that she knew all of his lyrics by heart. about that 2nd point you're making and the lolita thing, i consider it funny and innocent because, as you said, she reminds me of the way we fooled around in our mother's clothes when we were little girls. "there is an issue there with what the song is about: the long-suffering, waiting-for-her-man woman... in this case, portrayed by a 3-year old!! then the whole thing about "don't come as you usually do, empty handed"... it's at least a little bit disturbing: little girls already breaking their hearts over a guy, patiently waiting for him... and showing materialistic tendencies" - that's exactly what i think it satirizes. because i see a lot of girl groups daily on tv, and there are girls around 13 or 14, dressed in mini skirts and blouses that look more like bras [that's exploiting of the "lolita" concept] singing songs with lyrics like: "you think you can have me, better show me what you got, it takes a real men to be with me" etc. that is why i think it's rather a satyrical video and song, as the choice of the name "ghita" which is a totally traditional romanian calling, so not like the "cool", occidental breeze of the other girl videos.
the problem of her age still sticks tho`:(
----
well, on the other hand, i feel sorry for that girl [i thought about the fact that she's probably very young] and, as the matter a fact, i think she's the kind of girl that's very brave in front of the computer, but she's being patronized, considered a wannabe and probably discriminated against inside of the actual scene, without her even realizing. "when you access the group the first thing you see is this line in capital letters: "WE WILL NOT ACCEPT NATIONALISTIC, RACIST, SEXIST MESSAGES OR ANY MESSAGE WHICH PROMOTES HATE...", but that doesn't seem to make any kind of practical difference." - i think that's because, as we talked about earlier, they think that a message like the one you copied only reffers to "certain girls" and cannot be considered sexist, therefor. cause for them there are a lot of categories of girls, and none of them quite raise up to the standards actually, cause the "cunts" are sexy and likeable but don't fit in their world, and the punk girls are just "drinking mates".
but, as you said, i'm pretty damn sure that this girl will learn her lesson when she will face discrimination for being a woman herself. cause sooner or later she will face the pressure of being feminine.
those lyrics were of The 4Skins, in a song about the resemblance of the england society with the 1984 dystopia.
but anyway, here are some of my all time favourite punk lyrics:
"[...] Living under clouds of hate that control our destiny.
I won’t follow your rules of hate cause I’m fighting to be free.

I won’t pay for liberty, I think it should be free.
You always want to take so much, but you won’t be taking me.
You won’t be taking me.[...]" [Angelic Upstarts - I won't pay for liberty]
I cant' believe kids not learning anything from music :( Racist Bob Marley fans, nazi Angelic Upstarts listeners, a lot of people just hear, they don't listen...

Anonim spunea...

well i think the satire in "ghita" is really the entire song. i mean even the whole "portita" etc. the fact that she's three... well that gets into other issues as well also related to probably trying to launch her into the entertainment world. i read that she had a concert by herself recently and therefore is in the guinness book of world records, so there probably are some managers and agents involved, that's my guess.

ok... now reading the post.. there are so many points in it, i'm not sure where to start really responding.

well.. i think what bothers me in punk/hc culture is that people aren't aware of each other, but maybe that's what really bugs me on a global general level, it just so happens i've got like a magnifying lens to punk/hc culture. i think it began by saying 'we don't give a fuck about what society tells us' to 'we don't give a fuck about anyone' which was definitely a quick shift, especially since communication in the punk/hc scene isn't really open, nor encouraged... i would say it's really hard to say what you really think, unless there's a group standing behind you. for me behaviour in the pit, etc is also plagued by this same 'i don't give a fuck'.. my issue isn't that some people want to do their moves, but their ability to do their moves does not need to anihilate everyone who isn't up to watching their backs for that time.
i think some bands promote these attitudes.. saying things like "i wanna see you kill each other" (in relation to pit behaviour)... and while i'm sure they'll say that's just something to say in the heat of the moment and i'm sure they don't advocate actual killing, the fact is that the crowd will take whatever you say and run with it... i think there's little sense of ownership, and responsibility to oneself and to those around that happens in the community, and i think that gets added to from all sides really.

-andreea

bujor tavaloiu spunea...

about the satire, yes i agree and that's why i'm mostly comfortable with it (i'm v. close to enjoying that video), but i do think that there's still the dimension of "it satirizes the too sexy too materialistic too early lolita thing" - but can you draw a line between making fun of that stuff 100% and adapting that stuff to a much younger performer? because the "ghita", "portita", all of that: where is it clearly tongue-in-cheek-y and quirky and where is it just... cutesy (translated from adolescent/pre-adolescent-cute to toddler cute)? for me, there's an ambiguity. if i take it to be completely satirical, ok, but i can also see it as: they made all that stuff cute and age-appropriate, but it's still that stuff. i mean, there's plenty of other subjects she could be singing about, especially as her debut song - you know?

anyway. i do think she's pretty awesome and i hope she doesn't get exploited.

cristina, i agree with you, and i also feel almost sorry for the "femeile ne sufoaca" girl... and i certainly feel bad singling her out, or taking her to task - plus i definitely don't want to give the impression that i'm saying she shouldn't do or say something because she's a girl. but i do think that the kind of virulent hate and desdain towards "girls" that she's choosing to express warrants criticising her at that level. because the fact is that she's essentially being a puppet, and that she contributes to the attitude that: girls are worthless, girls are manipulative, girls are all whores, girls who aren't whores are... guys (or at most frustrated feminists) - it's the kind of excuse that gets used to justify all manner of discrimination: from exclusion from the "ranks of the scene" to name-calling to dehumanization and even violence. just like in mainstream. oh, wait, i forgot: girls are not actually discriminated against, only animals... sigh... i don't want her to find out about this stuff the hard way, but as you say she will, sooner or later...

:(

andreea, i'll write down some of this even though we've already talked about it - basically, i think you're right about the "not giving a fuck about other people" attitude defining most of the problem from the hc direction. but i totally see that as a very clear symptom of the hyper-masculinization i was talking about: giving a damn about people is a traditionally "feminine" trait and as such rejected, maybe even consciously so - as not giving a fuck then means the height of masculinity, right? that's exactly why the attitude is so engrained and so pervasive, and how it relates to the issue of "masculinity"/"femininity": the basic idea is that even as a punk you 1. can be either "masculine" or "feminine" and that's it, there's no option in between, and 2. will have to follow the rule that both "masculine" and "feminine" are already clearly and rigidly defined so that there's no freedom of movement within them either - if you want to be "successful" in the scene. (heh.) in other words, punk/hc is nicely molded to patriarchal shape. this is the stuff that provides impetus for bands and fans to behave like you say as far as the pit is concerned. (and as far as the status of girls is concerned.) remember that line that i love love love? "yeah, you're acting tough now, you think you're so cool, but i saw you eating ice cream earlier in the parking lot, i saw you... you ice-cream eating motherfucker!" :D well, that's totally the kind of stuff that will break up the "macho"/"hypermasculine"=cool paradigm. but it has to be done consciously. i mean, if it doesn't come naturally, it must be done consciously. (i think to ian it must come naturally because he's so EXCELLENT. hehe) of course, it also happens "naturally" in contexts where the challenge to the patriarchal status quo is implied - as is the case for butchies shows...

for me, the bottom line is that i will not support that which makes me uncomfortable. no matter what. i just won't put the "coolness" factor first, ever, since i am not interested in not feeling comfortable, where i can help it. and i can definitely help it by not attending shows i know will suck - for instance, i would never go to an avail show, or to a less than jake show, again in my life! because i've experienced a macho and stupid dynamic at those shows which the bands created and encouraged - and fuck that! the same with the snobs, at ladyfest... that was one of the worst and least ladyfest-like shows i've been to. and so for me, i'm not saying a band like that is worthless or that there aren't other bands that don't do the same thing. but i know what i felt and i won't support them in the future, based on their attitudes, period.

...
btw, here's the lyrics to one of my favorite songs ever (you see, half of the byline of my blog comes from it :D ):

"I'm not going to try to tell you that I'm different from all the rest. I've been subject to the same de-structure of desire and I've felt the same effects; I'm a hetero-sexist tragedy. And potential rapists all are we. But don't tell me this is natural. This is nurturing. And there's a difference between sexism and sexuality. I had different desires prior to my role-remodeling. And at six years of age you don't challenge their claims. You become the same. (Or withdraw from the game and hang your head in shame). I think that's exactly what I did. I tried to sever the connections between me and them. I fought against their further attempts to convince a kid that birthright can bestow the power to yield the subordination of women and do you know what patricentricity means? I found out just a couple of days/months/years/minutes ago. It means male values uber alles and hey! Whaddaya know... Sex has been distorted and vilified. I'm scared of my attraction to body types. If everything desired is objectified then maybe eroticism needs to be redefined. And I refuse to be a "man." ("Refusing to be a Man" from the album Less Talk, More Rock)

bujor tavaloiu spunea...

holy moly, that was long.

anyway, i wanted to say also that i edited the text - which i know is too long and all over the place as it is - to add something very relevant, a link to another post at feministe:

"the sexualization of young girls"

bujor tavaloiu spunea...

oh, and that song is by propagandhi of course :)